Comments on It's Ablaut Time: Language is misunderstanding

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William MacDonald

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On the notion that "bluffing" could be defined as ...

2004-08-13T11:03:00.000-07:00

On the notion that "bluffing" could be defined as a communicative act, I do not disagree. By communication, I meant not just propositional communication but "speech acts" in general. But even if we consider bluffing and the decisions involved in bluffing, to be communicative acts (and granted that the formal complexities of languages are exploited as markers of group affiliation) I would argue that there is still little evidence that the structures of languages are optimized for communicating information, whether of this type or another, or that language change is motivated by the need to better transmit information, any more than biological evolution is motivated by a need to be better adapted to an environment. Our point of agreement, I think, is that understanding the social function of language is probably more important, in studying language change, than understanding language as a means of communicating propositions.

"These formal filigrees, I would argue, are not th...

2004-08-13T07:57:00.000-07:00

"These formal filigrees, I would argue, are not there to serve some communicative function, but simply because speakers of languages assume that any pattern they can detect in their language is an essential part of the linguistic code which, if not maintained in their own speech would lead to them being outed as the language bluffers that they are."

Perhaps we think of "communication" in somewhat different ways, but it seems to me that establishing one's stance as a successful bluffer (or not) *is* in fact a communicative act. Language doesn't only communicate propositions -- it also simultaneously communicates packets of information about affiliation to communities and social standing in those communities.

Jimmy, It was inexact of me to conflate Guoyu and...

2004-08-12T14:29:00.000-07:00

Jimmy,

It was inexact of me to conflate Guoyu and Puthonghua, as they are--as you point out--quite distinct. It is interesting, though, that these distinctions are as much a product of the standardization process (as far as I know, or have learned from your post) as the similarities between these varieties.

[Also, today's Mainland putonghua and Taiwan guoyu...

2004-08-12T13:52:00.000-07:00

[Also, today's Mainland putonghua and Taiwan guoyu ("Mandarin" is really misleading), besides well-known lexical and phonological differences, have a different way to manage "classical"/wenyan constructions. This may be relevant to a discussion about grammatical complexity.]

Thank you, David, for your detailed answer, which ...

2004-08-12T13:39:00.000-07:00

Thank you, David, for your detailed answer, which makes your point a lot clearer to me. For personal reasons, rather than purely intellectual interest, I am very sensitive to the sociolinguistic (hope I got that right) dynamics between standard/official language and so-called dialectal varieties.
I am relieved to see that you don't consider the pidgin analogy as adequate for Mandarin (that did bother me, I admit). However, even a book like Lü Shuxiang 吕叔湘's 现代汉语八百词 (800 [grammatically functional] Words in Modern Chinese), which is widely used as a grammar companion in -and outside the Mainland, aknowledges, in a implicit way (through the extensive description of the numerous variants and exceptions corresponding to the use of said "words"), that language reform and standardization can never ignore completely real use, no matter how strong the ideological motivation. No one having to deal with spoken and written Chinese on a daily basis can entertain the illusion of a "rationalized" and unified language. You read and hear "exceptions" and "prohibited" forms all the time.

As for Mandarin not beign anyone's "mother tongue", this was still true ten years ago (I used to state it with much confidence back then), but, according to my personal experience, it is now starting to change with the emergence of a youth born grown up in a strictly urban environment with a mixed population (formed of insider immigrants, nobody beign a "real" local), whose linguistic habits are shaped by normalized media language and parents who do not teach their own dialect to their children anymore (a pity, if you ask me), be it for reasons of social advancement, or of nationalist ideology. I was surprised to meet young Taiwanese whose parents, while taiyu and/or hakka speakers forbid the use of any other language than official guoyu. Those people really developped "official language" as their mother tongue (the fact that dialect use was forbidden at school until recently helped, too).

A very similar phenomenon can be seen among Athenian youth who learned to speak only "Radio and TV" Greek since they were born (something very disturbing for old-school speakers like me).

[While writing, I realise I am getting a bit confusing; if you don't mind, I may come back later with some clearer argumentation.]

Jimmy, Mandarin certain doesn't fit the definitio...

2004-08-11T13:46:00.000-07:00

Jimmy,

Mandarin certain doesn't fit the definition of a pidgin (and that word only came up in respose to Zizka's comment over at Languagehat). The point, I guess, is that lots of “normal” languages are quite as regular and transparent in their grammar (or at least in the “entry-level” parts of the grammar) as pidgins, and Mandarin has often been cited as a case of this. With regards to the artificiality of Mandarin/Putonghua/Guoyu, I have to say that I am yet to meet someone who speaks this official standard as their mother-tongue (in natural settings, people seem to speak phonologically more interesting colloquial dialects), but I don't think that schoolbook Mandarin can be said to be asartificial as, say, Bahasa Indonesia. With regards to Greek, I have no idea--I know nothing of Greek after the Hellenic period. All that I was implying through this statment was that the process of standardization often has a “rationalizing” effect upon certain rough areas of grammars, and creates language varieties in which I have little interest as a linguist.

Hello, I came through Language Hat's link. Sorry i...

2004-08-11T10:54:00.000-07:00

Hello, I came through Language Hat's link.
Sorry if my question seems naïve, but I do not really understand how Chinese fits the definition of a pidgin (and, if so, which definition would that be?), and what allows to say it has a "semi-artificial status". Would you say the same for, say, Greek dimotiki (which is as "constructed" as Mandarin/guoyu/putonghua are).

Once again, while I may be a bit of a polyglot, I am no linguist at all. Thanks in advance for any clarification.

Very interesting. I hope you'll write more about ...

2004-08-10T09:51:00.000-07:00

Very interesting. I hope you'll write more about this.